All They Need Is Beer And Bait…
A church in my hometown was going to give a gun away as a prize in a youth conference shooting contest.
How awesome is that?
Unfortunately, the Channel Five news in Oklahoma City (known even fifteen years ago for its sensationalism), liberally re-used shots of a youth firing what appears to be an Uzi at gallon bottles filled with water. To end the footage, they also showed a paintball contest, but to the uneducated eye, it would look as though they were being trained in SWAT tactics. The dubious spin placed on the story by the reporters really makes my skin crawl. Bottom line, they are teaching teens to handle firearms safely and responsibly in a supervised environment.
Should a church be giving away a weapon?
I suppose a better question is should a church be giving anything away at all, especially given that the mission of the church is to minister to the needy and spread the Gospel. Using a raffle or a contest to draw people to the church to hear the message is a time-honored trick, so perhaps we can forgive the church for that. Likewise, the use to which the prize (an AR-15) is being put is for sport; i.e. shooting targets in a controlled environment. The prize comes with a degree of experience and instruction, and may even allow someone to defend their family one day. God works in mysterious ways, friends.
If a church has decided to give away any prize (something I’m not entirely comfortable with given the mission of the church), I suppose a gun is as good as anything.
Pete on July 13th 2008 in 2nd Amendment, Theology/Philosophy
catalyst22 responded on 13 Jul 2008 at 2:32 pm #
Perhaps the winner is needy of an Uzi?
Dez responded on 14 Jul 2008 at 8:46 am #
Have these people never heard of “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition”?
In defense of the church in question, this prize doesn’t draw the flock to the church service. No one is getting a gun to show up for praise and worship, so I don’t see this as a trick or bribe. The prize draws youth to a conference, and gives them a small incentive for their investment of time and expense to attend.
“The church’s youth pastor, Bob Ross, said it’s a way of trying to encourage young people to attend the event. The church expected hundreds of teenagers from as far away as Canada.”
However (beating the dead horse begins here) the giving of an assault rifle was ill-conceived and ill-advised. Really? An AR-15? For those unfamiliar with the designation, this weapon is the civilian equivalent of the M16A2 service rifle used by our troops. This is not a hunting rifle, nor is it the firearm of choice for marksmanship contests. The sole purpose of this weapon is to kill people… and what a great message that sends to the suffering and the lost. That the weapon was to be a door-prize does not help things either, in that the gift giver has no idea of the competency of the gift receiver. A hunting rifle or a shotgun would have been less controversial, but just as irresponsible as a random giveaway.
Catalyst22 responded on 14 Jul 2008 at 10:03 am #
Next year they are giving away a Panzer… It had a cross on it thus making it a worthy gift…
Dez responded on 14 Jul 2008 at 4:11 pm #
I wonder if a V2 rocket has a cross…
Catalyst22 responded on 14 Jul 2008 at 11:57 pm #
Nope, rocket scientists are notorious Pastafarians.
badfun responded on 15 Jul 2008 at 7:06 am #
“Have these people never heard of “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition”?”
I have hear the song, does that originate somewhere else?
Dez responded on 15 Jul 2008 at 11:50 am #
A Navy Chaplain aboard the USS New Orleans, during the bombing of Pearl Harbor, coined the phrase to raise the morale of the men aboard. The phrase was picked up and made the chorus to the song by that same name in 1942. In light of the Japanese attack the song championed “righteous” retaliation. In the last few years, however, bands like The Dixie Chicks and System of a Down have used the term to condemn the role of religion (particularly in war).
SSGWebb responded on 18 Jul 2008 at 9:05 pm #
Interestingly, my personal M4 has only ever been used for target shooting and has never killed anyone. I guess I need to complain to Bushmaster since it is obviously defective. My military M4 didn’t kill anyone either, another defective rifle…geez.
I do find it interesting that the AR15 is the top selling rifle to hunters, since they are hunting and the AR is not designed for hunting. Seems kind of odd that they would waste money on a rifle for hunting that will only kill people. But wait, when you boil it down to basics, isn’t killing people really just hunting amped?
Dez responded on 19 Jul 2008 at 2:54 pm #
Congrats on the promotion, SSgt. I think you are assuming that I am making a character judgment on those who own guns. I am not. I truly believe that people kill people; not guns kill people. However, I make a personal choice to avoid objects created specifically to engage, maim, and/or kill other people. I do not assume that those who own weapons will kill people. But I also do not assume that every weapon owner has the responsibility and reason to safely handle a weapon. Hence my objection to handing one out randomly to a teenager.
As far as marksmanship is concerned, all I said was that the AR15 model was not the rifle of choice. I did not say that it could not be used for marksmanship. Any projectile weapon (from a rock to a rocket) can be used for marksmanship firing… truly, it is rather the point to using a gun that you be able to hit the target you’re aiming for. But was firing at paper targets the sole reason why you purchased your M4? Wouldn’t you say that such would be a very expensive means for creating confetti? (Especially if you have the .45 variant) Why not use an air rifle, BB gun, standard .22 rifle, wrist rocket, etc.? Why? Because your primary reason for owning that rifle was not marksmanship. But, after you’ve made your complaint to Bushmaster (or Armalite as well), you may find that most target shooting competitions are held without the use of a weapon that has a shortened barrel, a collapsing stock, and a selection for 3 round burst fire (or full auto). The point of the competition being accuracy at range, not volume or close-quarters combat. You will tend to see weapons that are true hunting rifles, most often (but not always) bolt action… like perhaps a Remington 270. You will even see air rifles in these competitions, as well as pistols that employ wad-cutters. In marksmanship alone, having the choice of any rifle, and competing against your peers (military or otherwise), would you truly choose the M4? Doubtful… possible, but doubtful.
I do find it interesting that Charmin is the top selling toilet paper to hunters, since they they are using the product to wipe their backsides and that Charmin is not designed for hunting. Seems kind of odd that they would waste money on a hygiene product that will not kill any game while they are hunting… but then again, that would depend on what they’ve been digesting. Just because a hunter buys a product does not mean he’s using it for hunting. Also, the popularity of a product does not make it right morally, ethically, or legally… else crack cocaine would be considered an acceptable form of recreation.
Even if what you present is true (that the top selling weapon of hunters is the AR15; and that these hunters use this weapon for hunting), one must seriously question the reasoning of such a hunter on two grounds: (1) the ammunition tumbles through the target… for those of you who may be unfamiliar with this terminology, most high powered rounds make a clean through-and-through wound on their targets. Not so with the ammo of the AR15 (or the primary variant of the M4). Whether you call it 5.56 or .223, the ammo of this weapon enters the body of the target, loses the kinetic force to exit the target, and tumbles end-over-end through the muscles and organs of the target, shredding it from the inside, and often fragmenting the bullet (This is what makes the M16A2/AR15 so effective in combat). The use of tumbling ammunition risks contaminating the meat every time one fires (unless one can guarantee a head shot every time). Against small game you’ll turn your target into instant hamburger, or a burst furry water balloon. Thus, this is not a practical weapon for hunting. (2) Hunting with a rifle requires great accuracy. The AR15’s burst or auto fire selection destroys accuracy. Now if a herd of deer catches you in an ambush, by all means, go to auto and give ‘em hell. In single shot mode I can personally vouch for the accuracy of the AR15 (at 200, 300, and 500 meters) against a (note this) man-sized target; but it comes at greater monetary expense… and it is less accurate than cheaper, practical, more powerful, greater-ranged, true hunting rifles.
Catalyst22 responded on 20 Jul 2008 at 8:11 pm #
SGT Webb and SSGT Webb are not the same person (I now know).
Catalyst22 responded on 20 Jul 2008 at 8:12 pm #
sorry SSG not SSGT
Dez responded on 20 Jul 2008 at 9:05 pm #
Aha… I stand corrected. ‘Twas no promotion, but a doppleganger. Thanks for the info, Catalyst.
Dez responded on 06 Aug 2008 at 5:25 pm #
Just out of curiosity (no intention of causing contention or argument)… who among us has fired military hardware (or military grade hardware)? What did you fire?
In the USMC and in other government service I have fired the following:
M16A2 Assault (Service) Rifle
M203 40mm Grenade Launcher (M16 Mounted)
M4 Carbine
M4A1 Carbine (full auto)
AT4 Anti-Tank Weapon
MK19 40mm grenade launcher
M60 Machine Gun
M240G Machine Gun
M249 Light Machine Gun (SAW)
Browning M2 .50 cal Machine Gun (Ma Deuce)
Kalashnikov AK-47 Assault Rifle (live fire exercise)
Beretta M9 9mm Pistol
Browning .45 cal Pistol
Remington 870 12 Gauge Pump Action Shotgun
There are other weapons that I have handled in the USMC arsenal, but never fired (Ex: Mortars)
catalyst22 responded on 06 Aug 2008 at 8:52 pm #
I’ve shot alot of different weapons, but listed the more interesting stuff. Mostly similar to your list.
I’ve never fired a mortar, but I’ve directed fire
I’m real good at calling for FFE 
M16A1 my first service rifle (H&R)
M16A2 (Panther I think) service rifle
M203 40mm Grenade Launcher (M16 Mounted)
M4 Carbine
M1A
M1 Garand (Kasper and Wills toys :))
HK SP89 9mm(full auto rental at in door gun range)
HK MP5-SD3 9mm(friends full auto silenced)
Grease Gun .45 (full auto rental at in door gun range)
AT4 Anti-Tank Weapon (9mm trainer and just once live in basic)
MK19 40mm grenade launcher
M60 Machine Gun
M249 Light Machine Gun (SAW)
Browning M2 .50 cal Machine Gun (Ma Deuce)
Kalashnikov AK-47
Kalishnikov AK-74
Beretta M9 9mm Pistol (pos)
H&R 1911 first service pistol .45 cal Pistol
Many other pistols and guns that aren’t that interesting or memorable
Various shotguns
Other fun stuff:
Various Hand grenades (not so cool)
Bangalore Torpedo (very very cool)
Claymore (very cool)
Dez responded on 06 Aug 2008 at 9:19 pm #
I’ve always wanted to try a Garand. I hear they’re very accurate at long ranges. I’ve thrown grenades too, and one cannot fire a MK19 or an M203 without those funky looking 40mm grenades. I’ve set up claymores, but they were only trainers, not live, so I’ve never seen a live fire of a claymore. FFE is a great thing to hear :), especially if you’ve targeted quickly… I hate bracketing. My favorite firing experience has been the Ma Deuce… butterfly trigger, amazing cyclical rate, and outstanding distance…
My father collected WWI and WWII era Lugers. So when I was a kid I fired a few of these officer’s sidearms. An uncle of mine was a cop and allowed me to fire (on range) his .357 revolver (I think it was a Desert Eagle, but not sure). That is a scary powerful pistol.
Blitzfike responded on 07 Aug 2008 at 4:46 pm #
In the stone age… I qualified with the M-1 carbine in Basic Training at Lackland AFB. Before I was deployed to RVN, I had to qualify with the M-16 and the SW 38 spl revolver. Upon arrival in RVN, I qualified with the M-60 and the M-79. The blooper was one of my favorite weapons. I also launched about 500 slap flares while I was there… Got in some small trouble for firing an SKS on the berm off the edge of Bien Hoa airbase. Got lots of attention really quick… Blitz
Dez responded on 07 Aug 2008 at 6:59 pm #
Blitz, ever shoot off any dragon fire rounds while in Vietnam? I have a Vietnam Vet friend of the family who was a USMC tank mechanic turned tank driver. He was issued a shotgun with dragon fire rounds (white phosphorous). I have seen him fire a few, and boy do they make a purty blast o’fire.